Interview`s from lassi Suntio and Arno Petit

Intervieuw by arno Petit 

1 / What do you think about the new generation of Leavitt Bulldog that you come across today? Are you proud of your work? 

  1. My first criterion for a high quality LB (Leavitt Bulldog) is the dog’s phenotype (appearance) closely matching the original bull baiting dog. This old dogs’ appearance varied from his beginning about 1100 AD till baiting was outlawed in 1835. My dogs should match the Bulldog from 1790 to 1835. The LBA website shows some of my favorite depictions of this dog. My second, third, and fourth criteria are nearly as important as the first. They are good health, good conformation, and good temperament. Based on my criteria, I am very happy with the breeders working with me today and proud of the dogs they are producing. 

2 / Some people have been breeding Leavitt Bulldogs for over 30 years after the beginning of your creation and others copied your work (a sign of quality), it should be incredible to be recognize in your own time?

 2.  Recognition for my past work means little to me except when it gives me entre to expert dog trainers and breeders who I can learn from and who may have heard of me. My self-respect as a dog man is important to me though. I am enjoying the process of building the LBA, in hopes that it will help people breed healthy Bulldogs to the standard I love, after I’m gone.  One of my biggest joys today is training dogs again and learning from master trainer, Ruben Perez (with Loxahatchee Protection Dogs).

3 / Some breeders tell you aren’t the first to recreate an English Bulldog old type, what do you say about that? 

3.  I started my dog project in the early 1970’s.  All I wanted was to have a couple of dogs that matched the old type and use them as pets and farm guards.  I could not find them anywhere so was forced to create the OEB. I later learned about Clifford Derwent and his Regency Bulldog.  By the time I found him, he had already stopped his line. I think he started about the same time that I did, but he may have done it before me. He was a highly respectable man. I’ve seen one of his dog’s photos and he was a beautiful, agile looking Bulldog. 

 I think there have always been long legged Bulldogs in the U.S. that were pets, farm guardians or catch dogs.  But there was no organized breed.

4 / Today, we see so many lines or race of  OEB (a name created by you), for you who are the people or lines/races we can respect about their work of recreation?

 4.  I see very few alternative Bulldogs that I would consider as an outcross to bring into my dogs. Health is a real weak point today with alternative Bulldogs which is made worse because most breeders don’t have strict breeding selection criteria. The only ones I like are the breeders who are working their dogs and proving their quality through their performances. I know two who are training in personal protection. I would like to see more dogs competing and proving themselves in weight pull, obedience and agility but few breeders have the drive or skills necessary to train their dogs. 

I have seen some big, powerful, healthy looking Bulldogs. Their breeders want to recreate the cartoon Bulldogs they remember from their childhood. I can appreciate these dogs, but they don’t match the old dog that I like.

5 / What do you think about breeders who cross the lines/races of OEB and register their pups at the IOEBA? 

5.  I do not respect the IOEBA because of the wide range of types they register and the lack of effort expended on improving the health of the dogs and the ethics of their breeders.

6 / You created OEBA (when?), you went through OEBKC (when? How long did you stay?) and now LBA (when?) 

6.  I created the OEBA in 1975, to register and keep the stud book for my dogs. By 1993 I was burned out by the difficulty of finding good homes for the dogs I produced and the lack of reliable breeding partners. I spent a few years rescuing and fostering game Pit Bulls and owned 3 rescued terriers, the last of whom is still alive today. In 2005 I was asked to participate in the OEBKC as Chairman. I have a low thresh-hold for being told by backyard breeders how my creation should look and be managed so I left and formed the LBA in Jan. 2006. I also wanted to clear up the confusion caused by others using my OEB name for unrelated dogs and felt it would be impossible to get all these breeders to change their Breed name to something else so I abandoned the name I created and called the dogs LB. I did not use my name because of ego but because people were already calling them Leavitt Line.  

7.  see #5

8 / What are the  most important Leavitt Bulldogs for you (past and today)? And why? 

8.  I’ve never loved a dog as much as my original English Bulldog Bullmede’s Big Ben. His body did not live up to his spirit and my love for him drove me to recreate the old Bulldog, who was clearly healthier. My two perfect dogs were Tweed and Rosa. Today there are a number of LB’s whose looks match the old dog and who are fit and healthy.

9 / What are the pit bull lines you used to recreate the OEB? 

9.  My second dog was Murphy’s Lucy, a female Pit Bull/Bullmastiff. She was from San Francisco, Calif. And her father was a game bred Pit Bull named Duke. Her litter was bred for boar hunting. The other Pit Bull I used was Redmar’s Michele from Red Connors in New Hampshire. He bred the largest Pit Bulls of the time and Michele was a full sister of Captain Crunch who was a 125 lb. well proportioned Pit Bull.

 10 / Is it true that Mr Johnson used some Leavitt Bulldogs to reduce the problems of dysplasie on Johnson’s American Bulldog? 

10. False. John D. Johnson leased me females for breeding twice. I bred them to English Bulldog Westcamp’s High Hopes. John D. helped me. I brought him one of my crossbred pups who he named Gale in my wife’s honor.  He used this female in his line of American Bulldogs. He could have hidden this outcross but was forthright and used my kennel name, Bull Mead, in his registrations and pedigrees.

 11 / Could you tell us about this meeting? 

11.    I discovered John D. in an ARF newsletter produced by Tom Stodghill.   I went to his farm in northwest Georgia a few times. John D. and Mildred were wonderful people and very kind and warm hosts. We were from very different backgrounds but our love of Bulldogs brought us together. John D. was a good friend. 

12 / How could we register the Leavitt Bulldog to the ICF?

 12.  LBA registration is necessary to qualify a dog as an LB. We are then pleased to have our registered dogs recognized by other registries.

 In closing let me share some thoughts about the current dog world.  I have been privileged to meet some highly skilled dog trainers and breeders in the last few years. All of them have been from the working dog world; weight pull, protection sports, hog hunting and obedience. What sets these people apart is that they all are still learning and trying to train better and breed better. Competitions then show their success or failure, in a public forum.  At the same time I see well meaning novices, with high self opinions but very low skill sets, breeding most of the dogs produced in all breeds. They are driven by the desire to make money not better quality dogs. Some organizations are made up solely of these backyard breeders and don’t have one true dog expert in their whole club. By insulating themselves and never seeing what a great dog handler can accomplish, they convince themselves and others of their false expertise.

 My joy in dogs today comes from watching and learning from the experts and improving my skills. I’m learning to read dogs better and to communicate better. I’ve moved from commands and discipline to learning better methods of getting the dog to learn and to develop the teamwork necessary between a handler and his dog.

 

Interview Lassi Suntio

Interview

Tell us generally about yourself.(what have you done for living, generally about your family), how did you get involved with dogs.

My name is David Leavitt.  I'm 56 and live in Maryland, USA.  I grew up on a breeding farm for Standard Bred race horses and I've been around horses and dogs for most of my life.  I've worked as a photographer, designed and built solar heated houses and kennels,  bred my Bulldogs and was a carriagemaker (Doe Run Carriages).  My wife of 37 years is an artist.

When and how did you deside to start re-creating this old style bulldog? , did you have something special as a "idol" for a OEB (pictures,paintings)?

In 1970 I bought an English Bulldog named Bullmede's Big Ben.  I loved this dog more than any that followed.  He had a huge spirit and his body  just didn't live up to it.  Eventually I saw art showing the old working bull baiting dog, who clearly had a healthier more capable body.  I had found my ideal dog and decided to breed back.  There was a great range in artist's  depictions of the old dog..  My favorite is a Landseer print from 1820.

What where the criterions for the stock-dogs ?

I wanted breeds with old Bulldog in their genotype, when I chose my foundation stock.  This was just my personal preference. Next I was guided by reproducing the phenotype of the working Bulldog.  "Like produces like" was my method of molding a dog that matched the period artwork.  I searched long and hard for hidden remnants of old blood, ie. Spanish Bulldog, Majorcan, rumors of Bulldogs in Nova Scotia and the American south, but none of these panned out.  I considered the Boxer and Dogue d' Bordeaux, but didn't use them due to health concerns.  I chose 50% English Bulldog and 16.66% Pit Bull, Bull Mastiff and American Bulldog.

You choose to breed by using a line-breeding scheme, developed for cattle at Ohio State University , was there any certain reason why you choose this scheme?

I used a Dr. Fechimer's cattle line breeding scheme and started multiple ones so I could outcross when necessary.   The Fechimer scheme was the only way I could find to move forward in an organized way.  The dog was shaped by picking examples to breed that most closely matched the old dog and I eliminated lines that displayed demodex and epilepsy, even once.

There are many lines of olde english bulldogge nowdays, are there any lines you know that aren´t real OEBs? , lines like hermes, sullivan, nunley... or how it is determined what dog is a real OEB ?

I created a pure bred breed of dog and named it Olde English Bulldogge.  In the 1980's, my Breed became the top winning dog at Rare Breed shows.  We received good press.  Breeders started using my name for their unrelated dogs (most of whom didn't match my standard or the original Bulldog) at that time because they wanted to cash in on our  good reputation.  

What makes a true OEB?  They must come from my bloodlines.

I am bitter about breeders stealing my breed name, because their dogs don't match the phenotype of the old working dog.  I am bitter because their dogs clearly don't have the appearance of a dog who could successfully bait a bull.  I am bitter because their dogs are not fit or capable and am horrified to think that people could be confused and misled to believe that these poor unhealthy dogs (with no heat tolerance) are my creation.  And I am bitter because so many of their breeders are not knowledgeable, trained dog people.  I'm bitter because many of these OEB's are being bred mainly for money and many are not getting good homes and lives.  I am bitter because many of these dogs are not pure bred.

Finally let me point out that these alternative bulldogs are not part of a breed, since all breeds start from foundation stock and breed out from there, as even beginner students of animal husbandry know.   The infringers tell me my breed name  now designates a type of dog.  Well if they are a type of dog, it is a type that is not based on working ability (unlike Bandogs) or foundation breeds (like Lurchers), but is based on anarchy and the self interest of dog profiteers and puppy millers.  For the honest people breeding these big unhealthy non working English Bulldog things, go right ahead, just don't call them by my name for a dog that had definite foundation breeds, had to possess the looks of the old Bull Baiter and had to have the health and temperament to work and serve man.  Sorry for ranting, but you should be able to understand the source of my frustration.

In 1990´s you "retired" from breeding OEBs, why ?  what is your situation nowdays?  you are mentioned as a chairman of LBA, Do you have any interests to make a comeback to dog breeding?

In the early 1990's I stopped breeding for a few reasons.  My dogs were finally looking right.  I had produced 2 perfect examples; Tweed and Rosa.  All of the people I tried to enlist in breeding, became instant experts and went their own way in a short time.  The main problem was I couldn't get them to hip x-ray, even though they knew from our first contact, that it was required before breeding.  I then suffered a couple of whelping tragedies.  Seeing a bitch eat a puppy got to me.  Then there  was the birth of the most beautifully marked pup of my career.  I checked her right after being born and she had cleft palette.  The act of killing her wounded me deeply.  Also I had started doing Pit Bull rescue and going in and out of humane shelters and seeing the hundreds of dogs being killed as surplus, was the final stray (today 11,000 dogs a day are killed in shelters in the US).  My kennels and breeding stock went to Michael Walz, who has continued to this day. 

About registry associations, there are many who will register OEBs , what associations would you prefer, which are reliable from your opinion? What has happened to OEBA, is it still "alive" or has it stopped its activities?

My registry, the OEBA had performance problems with Mike and was followed by the OEBKC in 2001.  I was invited to work with the OEBKC in 2005 and left later that year to found the Leavitt Bulldog Association (LBA) , a more working dog oriented organization.   At this time the only registries for dogs from my lines are the LBA and OEBKC.   We are looking forward to one day competing in ARBA, NKC and UKC events.

How do you see the future for OEBs?

The future of the breed looks very bright.  I have enthusiastic breeders and trainers.  I have hopes that the dogs will continue to improve in phenotype, health and working ability.  There are LB's winning at weight pull, Schutzhund, and conformation.  It is a dream come true for me to be getting the help and support of good breeders today who are committed to the Breed and are working hard to improve it.

About health, what is the situation of this breed? are there hereditable illnesses, what is your opinion of using bad/passable dogs for breeding. (hips, eyes, knees, allergies) , where goes the line to use these dogs for breeding at your opinion?

The OEB is susceptible to all the English Buldog problems; demodex mange, epilepsy, hip dispasia, soft palate, slit nostrils, down in the pasterns, kinked tails and postie rear legs.   Only the best examples of the Breed should be used for breeding.  Dogs with any any of the preceding problems must not be bred. 

There is a finer line in breeding stock selection for working dogs.   Lack of heat tolerance is common in bull breeds and is a real problem.  I expect a good dog to be able to work on an 80 degree fahrenheit day.  This is very hard.  Even German breeds that have a nose get hot doing personal protection work at 80 degrees.  I have seen bull breeds in distress, just standing in the conformation ring.  This is not a successful working dog to me….

At the start the breed standard was very plain and short. Nowdays it is very accurate , like there are maximum height and weight limits and there are very detailed  specifications for every part of the dog. why is this?  Has the outward appearance become as a very noticeable / important matter?

Outward appearance is always an important matter.  I have just spent the last week and a half developing an even more detailed Standard.  The standard must be complete so judges have a way to grade the dogs.  A detailed standard helps produce uniform, consistent dogs, which is critical for a breed and is one measure of a breed's success and maturity.   When I am dead I don't want some newbie, hobby breeder, who has no deep knowledge of breeding, training or of the Bulldog history that guides the phenotype of these dogs, rewriting the standard to match his dogs.

Word is free. What do you like to say to finnish OEB people? and to people who are planning to get an OEB?

People should only breed if they are driven to improve the dogs.  There are too many dogs being killed as excess for you to breed dogs mainly for the purpose of making money. 

Buy only the best. Be prepared to have the best puppy turn into an adult with problem health, or conformation or temperament and when it happens, cut your loses and don't breed that dog. 

Most important is to work your dog.  All the dogs need basic obedience.  More advanced work is an added plus.  Remember that in a performance event, gossip and talk is nothing.  Your dog 's performance does all the talking for you. Get the best and then train and prepare harder than your competition.

LBA Mission Statement

The Leavitt Bulldog Association is a group of breeders, owners and Breed enthusiasts who have joined together with David Leavitt to preserve the Regency Period working Bull Baiter that he created and named Olde English Bulldogge in the early 1970's.  We now call our dogs Leavitt Bulldogs in an effort to differentiate them from the larger body of unrelated dogs called Olde English Bulldogge today.

We are committed to reproducing the looks, agility, health, and working ability of the 1820 dog, but with a temperament that ensures the dogs will be excellent family companions.  Maintaining and improving health, temperament and working ability is our primary mission.  We will continue to develop programs and breeding selection to further this mission, as well as providing registry service and maintenance of our stud book.

Interview is Copyright David Leavitt 2007

 

Interview Arno Petit French

David Leavitt 2009 

Que pensez-vous des nouvelles générations de LB que vous rencontrez aujourd’hui ? Etes vous fier de votre travail ?

Mon premier critère de qualité pour un Leavitt Bulldog est le phénotype du chien (l'apparence) correspondant aux chiens qui combattaient les taureaux. L'aspect de ces chiens a évolué depuis de son apparition en 1100 ap J.-C. jusqu'a 1835, date à laquelle les combats chiens/ taureaux sont devenus illégaux.

Mes chiens doivent correspondre physiquement au Bouledogue de la période 1790 à 1835. Le site Internet de la LBA montre certaines de mes représentations préférées (peintures, dessins, sculptures) de ce chien durant cette période. Mon second, troisième et quatrième critères sont presque aussi importants que le premier. Ce sont une bonne santé, la bonne conformation et un bon tempérament. Sur la base de ces critères, je suis fier des chiens  produits aujourd’hui par les éleveurs de LB.  

Des gens élèvent encore du LB 40 ans après le début de votre création et d’autres ont copié votre travail (un signe de qualité), ce doit être incroyable d’être reconnu de son vivant ?

La reconnaissance pour mon travail passé m’intéresse peu sauf lorsque des entraîneurs de chien spécialisés et des éleveurs qui m’apprennent encore des choses sur le chien me disent avoir entendu parler de moi.

 Ma dignité personnelle comme un homme de chien est importante pour moi bien que.

J'apprécie le fait d’avoir mis en place la LBA, dans l’espoir qu'il aidera les gens à élever des Bouledogues en bonne santé et à la norme que j'aime, lorsque je ne serais plus là. Une de mes  plus grandes joies aujourd'hui est d’entraîner encore des chiens et d’apprendre au coté du maître des entraîneurs, Ruben Perez (avec les Chiens de Protection Loxahatchee).  

Certains éleveurs disent que vous n’etes pas le premier à avoir recréer un BA de type ancien, qu’en dites-vous ?

3. J'ai commencé mon projet de chien au début des années 70. Tout ce que je voulais au départ, c’était d’avoir deux ou trois chiens qui correspondaient au type de Bulldog ancien et les utiliser comme chiens de garde et  animaux de compagnie. N’arrivant  pas en trouver, j’ai alors crée l'Olde English Bulldogge. J'ai appris plus tard l’existence de Clifford Derwent et de son Regency Bulldog. Mais il avait déjà arrêté sa lignée. Je crois qu'il a commencé son travail au même moment que moi, mais il est possible qu’il ait pu commencer avant. C’était un homme très honorable. J'ai vu une photo d’un de ses chiens, il était beau et avait l’air vif.

Je pense qu’il y a aux Etats-Unis un long passé concernant les  Bulldog qui étaient des animaux de compagnie, des gardiens de ferme ou des chiens de chasse. Mais qu’il n'y avait aucune race organisée.

 

Bull Mead Kennel, l’élevage de David Leavitt  

Aujourd’hui, on voit beaucoup de races ou de lignées porter le nom de OEB (nom que vous avez inventé), quels sont pour vous les éleveurs, races/lignées que l’on peut respecter pour leur travail de recréation ?

 4. Je vois très peu de Bouledogues alternatifs (non Bulldog Anglais) que je prendrais comme apport (sang neuf) dans ma race. La santé est devenue une faible composante  aujourd'hui dans le monde du Bouledogue alternatif parce que la plupart des éleveurs n'ont pas de critères de sélection ni de reproduction stricts. Les seuls que je respecte, sont les éleveurs qui travaillent leurs chiens et prouvent leur qualité au travers de leurs performances. J’en connais deux qui sont dans l'entraînement de la protection personnelle. Je voudrais voir plus de chiens rivaliser et prouver leurs capacités dans les concours de weight pulling, d’obéissance et d’agilité mais peu d'éleveurs ont le tour ou les connaissances nécessaires pour former leurs chiens.

Les éleveurs veulent recréer les Bouledogues des dessins animés de leur enfance. J’apprécie ces chiens, mais ils ne correspondent pas à l’ancien type du Bulldog que j'aime.

 Que pensez-vous de l’IOEBA ?

5. Je ne respecte pas l'IOEBA à cause de la large gamme de types qu'ils enregistrent  (Pit Bull, Boston terrier et tout ce qui ressemble à du Bulldog) et le manque d'effort quant à l'amélioration de la santé des chiens et à l'éthique de leurs éleveurs.

 

Quand avez vous crée l’OEBA, Quand et pourquoi avoir rejoint l’OEBKC et quand avez vous crée la LBA ?

6. J'ai créé l'OEBA en 1975, pour enregistrer et garder le livre des origines pour mes chiens. En 1993, j'ai été forcé d’arrêter de par la difficulté à trouver de bons élevages pour placer les chiens que j’avais produit et le manque de partenaires de reproduction fiables. J'ai passé quelques années à essayer de sauver des Pit Bull dédiés au combat et j’en ai gardé 3, dont le dernier est toujours vivant aujourd'hui.

 En 2005 on m'a demandé de participer à l'OEBKC comme Président. Je l’ai quitté  car des éleveurs de seconde zone me disaient  à quoi devait ressembler ma création et comment elle devait être gérée. J’ai alors crée la Leavitt Bulldog Association en janvier 2006.

 J'ai voulu aussi effacer la confusion provoquée par d'autres éleveurs utilisant le nom d'OEB (que j’avais inventé) sur des chiens sans rapport avec ma race. Ayant estimé qu'il serait impossible de les convaincre tous de ne plus utiliser le nom de ma race, j'ai abandonné le nom que j'avais créé et l’ai appelé Leavitt Bulldog, pas par égocentrisme mais parce que les gens les appelaient déjà ainsi.

 Quel a été le LB le plus important pour vous et pourquoi ?

 8. Je n'ai jamais autant aimé un chien  que mon Bulldog Anglais  Big Ben. Son corps n'était pas en adéquation avec son esprit et mon amour pour lui m'a poussé à recréer le Bulldog Anglais d’époque, qui était physiquement sain.

Mes deux chiens parfaits étaient de Tweed et Rosa.

Aujourd'hui il y a un certain nombre de LB dont l'apparence correspond à l’ancien type et qui sont en forme et en bonne santé.  

Quel a été la lignée de Pit Bull utilisée pour votre travail ?

9. Mon deuxième chien était Murphy’s Lucy, une femelle Pit Bull/Bullmastiff.

Elle était de San Francisco et son père était un Pit Bull de combat appelé « le Duc ».

Sa portée avait été faite pour la chasse au sanglier.

L'autre Pit Bull que j'ai utilisé était Redmar’s Michele  de chez Red Connors dans le New Hampshire. Il a élevé les plus imposants Pit bull de tous les temps.

Michele était une soeur de Capitain Crunch qui pesait 125 livres (soit 57 kg) et très bien proportionné.(un male APBT pése en moyenne entre 25 et 35 kg)

 Est il vrai que John D Johnson a utilisé du Leavitt Bulldog pour régler les problèmes de dysplasie sur le Bulldog Américain ?

10. Faux. John D. Johnson m'a loué deux fois des femelles pour la reproduction. Je les ai accouplé à un  Bouledogue anglais qui s’appelait Westcamp’s High Hopes.

 John D. m'a aidé. Je lui ai donc apporté un des chiots de cette portée qu'il a appelé Gale en l'honneur de ma femme. Il a utilisé cette femelle dans sa lignée de Bouledogues américains. Il aurait pu  cacher cette « intruse », mais il a été honnête et a utilisé mon nom de chenil, Bull Mead, dans ses enregistrements et pedigrees.  

 Pouvez vous nous raconter cette rencontre ?

11. J'ai découvert John D. dans un bulletin ARF produit par Tom Stodghill. Je suis allé à sa ferme dans le Nord-Ouest de la Géorgie plusieurs fois.

John D. et Mildred (sa femme) étaient des gens adorables et des hôtes très gentils et chaleureux.

Nous étions de milieux très différents mais notre amour du Bouledogue nous a réunis. John D. était un bon ami. 

Comment un chien devient Leavitt Bulldog ?

12. L'enregistrement à la LBA est nécessaire pour autoriser un chien à porter le nom de Leavitt Bulldog. Nous sommes contents aussi de faire reconnaître nos chiens inscrits par d'autres organismes d’enregistrements. 

 En conclusion,  j’aimerais vous livrer mes pensées sur le  monde du chien actuel. J'ai eu  le privilège de rencontrer certains entraîneurs et éleveurs de chien extrêmement qualifiés au cours de ces dernières années.

Ils tous ont été dans le monde du chien de travail; du weight pulling, des sports de protection, de la chasse au sanglier et de l'obéissance.

Ce qui distingue ces gens des autres, est qu'ils apprennent encore tous chaque jour, qu’ils essaient de s'entraîner au mieux et de faire de l’élevage le plus consciencieusement possible.

Les compétitions montrent alors leur succès ou leurs échecs.

Et d’un autre coté, je vois bien le jeu des novices qui ont une haute opinion d’eux même, mais avec des connaissances très limitées dans la reproduction et la stabilité d’une race. Ils sont conduits par le désir de faire de l'argent et non par la qualité des chiens.

Certaines organisations sont inventées par ces éleveurs de seconde zone qui n'ont pas un seul vrai expert en chien dans leur club. En s'isolant et en ne voyant jamais ce qu'un grand dresseur de chien peut accomplir, ils se convainquent eux même et ainsi que d'autres de leurs erreurs.

Ma joie dans le monde du chien aujourd'hui est de regarder et d’apprendre au contact des experts et d’améliorer mes connaissances.

 J'apprends à mieux comprendre les chiens et à mieux communiquer.

 J'ai quitté le monde des ordres et de la discipline pour celui de  l'apprentissage de meilleures méthodes afin d’apprendre et de développer le travail d'équipe nécessaire entre un dresseur et son chien.

 Bull Mead Kennel 2009 

 

la fameuse Bull Mead’s Polly avec D.Leavitt à droite

 

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